Apparently worsening your team is now a 'method' to play Defense in MUT

Meldarion said:

I will agree with you there, the incompetence shown does not support an intricate dda implementation. However I was not arguing to confirm OPs opinion, I am simply saying that DDA or ”momentum” etc is absolutely at work in this game and to flatly argue otherwise is ridiculous. When these mechanics apply is absolutely unclear but I appreciate OP and others testing any apparent triggers.

I didn't say anything about OP's opinion either. But if it's ridiculous to argue that DDA or momentum is not in the game, then you'd better have better supporting arguments than "when these mechanics apply is absolutely unclear". You are contradicting yourself and your view with two consecutive sentences there. If you can support an argument for DDA, citing evidence, statistics, empirical data in some form, then by all means. However, something like "I was playing better than my opponent but suddenly the game worked against me, I got bad animations, blah blah" isn't gonna fly. It's a tale as old as the game itself and nobody has ever proven anything there. The game is full of garbage coding, so naturally, there are gonna be games someone simply gets unlucky.

antitwisted said:

I didn't say anything about OP's opinion either. But if it's ridiculous to argue that DDA or momentum is not in the game, then you'd better have better supporting arguments than "when these mechanics apply is absolutely unclear". You are contradicting yourself and your view with two consecutive sentences there. If you can support an argument for DDA, citing evidence, statistics, empirical data in some form, then by all means. However, something like "I was playing better than my opponent but suddenly the game worked against me, I got bad animations, blah blah" isn't gonna fly. It's a tale as old as the game itself and nobody has ever proven anything there. The game is full of garbage coding, so naturally, there are gonna be games someone simply gets unlucky.

Admitting I could have worded it differently, I said it’s not clear what triggers the mechanic, not how it manifests. I don’t think anyone could say if you have a X+4 better team overall it applies, or if you’ve won 10 in a row etc. The phenomenon is clear as day however. It’s not singular isolated random occurrences it’s when your players (or theirs) start making a chain of statistically improbable plays/actions. You know as well as I do that short of illegal actions it’s impossible to provide the evidence you are declaring as necessary, it’s a cheap and meaningless argument. For example, show me with imperical hard data that DDA is not in the game… I’ll wait.

Meldarion said:

Admitting I could have worded it differently, I said it’s not clear what triggers the mechanic, not how it manifests. I don’t think anyone could say if you have a X+4 better team overall it applies, or if you’ve won 10 in a row etc. The phenomenon is clear as day however. It’s not singular isolated random occurrences it’s when your players (or theirs) start making a chain of statistically improbable plays/actions. You know as well as I do that short of illegal actions it’s impossible to provide the evidence you are declaring as necessary, it’s a cheap and meaningless argument. For example, show me with imperical hard data that DDA is not in the game… I’ll wait.

Haha...something exists because someone can't prove it does not. When the proof would require hacking in and stealing source code; illegal actions as you stated yourself. 

My point was, and we seem to agree, that the game is poorly coded and as a result it can be incredibly random. This alone could account for what people call "DDA".  I feel their issue is, they feel screwed over or the game favors someone else sometimes, so they account for this by assigning an intentionally unfair mechanic.

Empirical data that it does not exist? Sure. Higher skilled/ranked players will routinely win 15-20 in a row in champs, gauntlet etc. There's a reason the same players always finish where they do. But some people just need a conspiracy theory.

PBateman said:

Hard to believe, but you still don’t get it.

I’m not the one claiming this works; I’m not the one who uploaded a video about it, either. And I—unlike you or the Dolphin bum—wasn’t the one trying to make this about winning or losing, fair or unfair. Not with a single word. Either quote me or stop putting words in my mouth when everyone can read the post.

It’s like you’re responding to something that wasn’t even said.

Why do you want me to prove anything? It’s as if the post offended you or as if you have a stake in this for some strange reason.

I merely pointed out that it appears this is a thing right now, and then went on to suggest a reason why that might be the case, if it even is.

So, what’s your problem with me or with what I said?

So your implying that we were  offended because our opinion differs  from  yours   but yet you were the one name calling . Seems like your the one in your feelings .

Meldarion said:

Admitting I could have worded it differently, I said it’s not clear what triggers the mechanic, not how it manifests. I don’t think anyone could say if you have a X+4 better team overall it applies, or if you’ve won 10 in a row etc. The phenomenon is clear as day however. It’s not singular isolated random occurrences it’s when your players (or theirs) start making a chain of statistically improbable plays/actions. You know as well as I do that short of illegal actions it’s impossible to provide the evidence you are declaring as necessary, it’s a cheap and meaningless argument. For example, show me with imperical hard data that DDA is not in the game… I’ll wait.

Neither of us has as you say empirical  ( when you try to sound smart , spell the word correctly ) has evidence but logically why would EA put it in the game ? Why would you rip packs for the cards  and or do hours of solos if it did not matter ? Also I would imagine MUT LEAKS would have uncovered  it as well .  That being said I'm OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA .

Massadolphin said:

Neither of us has as you say empirical  ( when you try to sound smart , spell the word correctly ) has evidence but logically why would EA put it in the game ? Why would you rip packs for the cards  and or do hours of solos if it did not matter ? Also I would imagine MUT LEAKS would have uncovered  it as well .  That being said I'm OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA .

Yeah poor spelling error sorry, it was 3 something AM and I had a few adult beverages while stupidly arguing with someone who uses strawman arguments, i.e. "OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA," to feel some sort of fleeting superiority. 

First, I never said I would be in the MCS if not for DDA. I understand you are being hyperbolic so let me be clear, I am not a good player. A good player can and will compensate for any perceived or actual DDA/momentum mechanics and even I have overcome obvious changes in mechanics from time to time. As I literally stated, my belief that those mechanics activate in certain matches should not be read in support of people who cry about DDA after a loss. I am also certain that I, and others, have falsely blamed results (either W/L or play outcomes) on DDA when it was not in-effect. Still, the fact that people incorrectly, or correctly, blame DDA for results has no bearing on whether it exists or not, which was the only thing I was ever interested in commenting on.

Massadolphin said:

Neither of us has as you say empirical  ( when you try to sound smart , spell the word correctly ) has evidence but logically why would EA put it in the game ? Why would you rip packs for the cards  and or do hours of solos if it did not matter ? Also I would imagine MUT LEAKS would have uncovered  it as well .  That being said I'm OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA .

Good day  

This is a very interesting read as I must say,, here is my input on this , I am not good player at all. I lose more than I win but I have seen me win games that I clearly had no reason on winning at all and then I get a message from the opponent, telling me he was cheated which I would let him know he most definitely was 

I believe that EA is very high on engagement. They really want to show the NFL numbers of how many people are engaged with Madden which is why I believe if you were to lose a lot, you would not want to have any part of this game, you would just put it away and move on and you wouldn’t even consider building your team , therefore if there was some kind of component that would help players win that are not good then perhaps that player would continue playing the game you  then would have that feeling of excitement and would maybe continue building your team through engagement 

my theory is if you’re a good player, you’re going to continue playing and you’re going to  get your wins anyway , you also might not need to upgrade your team as much unless you start to see your team playing bad , now some people speculate that their players get nerfed or it can be other factors 

I think the goal  is to keep the bad players engaged because those are the ones that are most likely going to buy packs and build their team in hopes of getting better results which will correlate to wins. When you think about it good players really don’t need to upgrade their team as much.

Meldarion said:

Yeah poor spelling error sorry, it was 3 something AM and I had a few adult beverages while stupidly arguing with someone who uses strawman arguments, i.e. "OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA," to feel some sort of fleeting superiority. 

First, I never said I would be in the MCS if not for DDA. I understand you are being hyperbolic so let me be clear, I am not a good player. A good player can and will compensate for any perceived or actual DDA/momentum mechanics and even I have overcome obvious changes in mechanics from time to time. As I literally stated, my belief that those mechanics activate in certain matches should not be read in support of people who cry about DDA after a loss. I am also certain that I, and others, have falsely blamed results (either W/L or play outcomes) on DDA when it was not in-effect. Still, the fact that people incorrectly, or correctly, blame DDA for results has no bearing on whether it exists or not, which was the only thing I was ever interested in commenting on.

One thing I've considered, and have not written off entirely, is that while EA states DDA is not in the game, they do have sliders, momentum etc in the settings. They have repeatedly failed at verifying things work properly before; historically quite often. So one possibility is it's not INTENDED to be in the game, it's not BELIEVED by the developers themselves to be in the game, but by an oversight or several, it IS in the game...uh, no pun intended. Would be hilariously ironic if this is the case.

Meldarion said:

Yeah poor spelling error sorry, it was 3 something AM and I had a few adult beverages while stupidly arguing with someone who uses strawman arguments, i.e. "OK with you and and others believing that they would be MCS players if not for DDA," to feel some sort of fleeting superiority. 

First, I never said I would be in the MCS if not for DDA. I understand you are being hyperbolic so let me be clear, I am not a good player. A good player can and will compensate for any perceived or actual DDA/momentum mechanics and even I have overcome obvious changes in mechanics from time to time. As I literally stated, my belief that those mechanics activate in certain matches should not be read in support of people who cry about DDA after a loss. I am also certain that I, and others, have falsely blamed results (either W/L or play outcomes) on DDA when it was not in-effect. Still, the fact that people incorrectly, or correctly, blame DDA for results has no bearing on whether it exists or not, which was the only thing I was ever interested in commenting on.

I'm not superior or elite I just don't blame loss's on  DDA , input lag , controller . When I lose it is because I'm not a better player than my opponent . Also if your thinking about the MUT forums at 3 AM  while drinking I think you might other problems than playing CB'S at Safety or DDA .

ItsmeD said:

Good day  

This is a very interesting read as I must say,, here is my input on this , I am not good player at all. I lose more than I win but I have seen me win games that I clearly had no reason on winning at all and then I get a message from the opponent, telling me he was cheated which I would let him know he most definitely was 

I believe that EA is very high on engagement. They really want to show the NFL numbers of how many people are engaged with Madden which is why I believe if you were to lose a lot, you would not want to have any part of this game, you would just put it away and move on and you wouldn’t even consider building your team , therefore if there was some kind of component that would help players win that are not good then perhaps that player would continue playing the game you  then would have that feeling of excitement and would maybe continue building your team through engagement 

my theory is if you’re a good player, you’re going to continue playing and you’re going to  get your wins anyway , you also might not need to upgrade your team as much unless you start to see your team playing bad , now some people speculate that their players get nerfed or it can be other factors 

I think the goal  is to keep the bad players engaged because those are the ones that are most likely going to buy packs and build their team in hopes of getting better results which will correlate to wins. When you think about it good players really don’t need to upgrade their team as much.

That's what ELO fixes  ,  If DDA exists everyone win % would be roughly 50 ish % . The argument some has is good players can over come DDA but the problem with that logic is they are generally playing other good players . Watch someone like KMAC , Henry , Dubby  play Ranked and or Gauntlet  and you realize that is a different level of Madden .

Massadolphin said:

That's what ELO fixes  ,  If DDA exists everyone win % would be roughly 50 ish % . The argument some has is good players can over come DDA but the problem with that logic is they are generally playing other good players . Watch someone like KMAC , Henry , Dubby  play Ranked and or Gauntlet  and you realize that is a different level of Madden .

Good day  

I understand what you’re saying, but those specific players that you mentioned they are well aware of certain plays that work built on you can say exploits or just knowing the timing and where to get rid of the ball now I was matched up against some very good players and I’d be down 2 touchdowns or more  but I’m still staying in the game just to try to complete some of the objectives and practice plays but suddenly  The CPU instantly sacked the quarterback and the ball fumbled to the ground. Then someone else will pick it up and run it in for a touchdown  And it wasn’t even me or I’ll score a touchdown kick the ball to them and the CPU will engage in a hit stick fumble and it’s my ball right near the TD or many times my opponent will score a touchdown and I will use that time to take a bite of my sandwich or take a drink of water or even look at my phone and all of a sudden the point has been blocked or even a field goal when I wasn’t even playing. 
 

All I’m saying is that I’ve seen some questionable stuff that has happened that has helped me get  wins

PBateman said:

This sounds like some real conspiracy theory type ish but bear with me. 
Mayz posted this video - and I had seen it in Champs and Gauntlet before - about how he deliberately puts CBs at Safety and vice versa so they get a rating penalty because they actually cover better that way in his 3-3Cub based Match. 

Now its impossible to prove this right or wrong but I've been in several games where Moss, Hyatt and Deebo have gotten completely strapped by way worse and slower cards. 
Not able to beat the press, not getting any separation with manual or auto motions, no separation on drags or slants, nothing. This could just be Madden being Madden but how about this theory: If higher-rated cards are more frequently affected negatively by DDA, this 'method' might make sense because you 'force' it to work in your favor. 
Mayz basically said that it sounds super weird and he has no idea why it is the way it is ('EA has some explaining to do'). 

Anybody come across this or is actually using it ?

Okay, okay okay... first and foremost -- I'm going to try and be gentle here, as you obviously don't have parents that love you. 😉😉😉  IF you did, they would have taught you how television is going to rot your brain and you shouldn't believe everything you see, hear or read... especially not on TV.  And doubly-especially not from anyone purporting to be a Madden expert.  In case it wasn't already obvious, i am kidding.

However, i am not joking about this part -- PLEASE, explain to me this "rating penalty" that you mentioned.  I know you can't possibly mean the slight OVR drop that cards tend to receive from playing OOP.  I have seen exactly zero evidence that this impacts the cards in ANY meaningful way (or really any tangible way at all).  All the stats remain the same, the abilities don't change... so what gives?  If this is your first 100 days of playing Ultimate Team, i guess you deserve a pass.  It's an extremely common misconception, one that i made myself, but those OVR ratings Do. Not. Matter.  They should be considered at best, a general guideline, but even that is being far too generous.  This has been debated since long before i rejoined the Madden community.

Dynamic difficulty adjustment (DDA) is a technique for adaptively changing a game to make it easier or harder. A common paradigm to achieve DDA is through heuristic prediction and intervention, adjusting game difficulty once undesirable player states (e.g., boredom or frustration) are observed. Without quantitative objectives, it is impossible to optimize the strength of intervention and achieve the best effectiveness. In this paper, we propose a DDA framework with a global optimization objective of maximizing a player's engagement throughout the entire game. Using level-based games as our example, we model a player's progression as a probabilistic graph. Dynamic difficulty reduces to optimizing transition probabilities to maximize a player's stay time in the progression graph. We have successfully developed a system that applies this technique in multiple games by Electronic Arts, Inc., and have observed up to 9% improvement in player engagement with a neutral impact on monetization.

I'm DEF not here to suggest you trust anything EA says, or does, but i've not seen any evidence that they have competent leadership, let alone a Dev team that is set up for success. I chalk the majority of these topics up to random events in a buggy, inconsistent mess of a game.  Feel free to change my mind, but i'm looking for proof.  The real problem is this pay to win nonsense. Has zero place in online, "competitive" games.  Especially not ones we hope are fair & balanced.  EA isn't going to shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the 1% of whales that spend 80+% of the money on packs.  So much cope.

Official EA statement here: https://www.ea.com/en-au/news/fair-play-and-dynamic-difficulty-adjustment

peatrick said:

Okay, okay okay... first and foremost -- I'm going to try and be gentle here, as you obviously don't have parents that love you. 😉😉😉  IF you did, they would have taught you how television is going to rot your brain and you shouldn't believe everything you see, hear or read... especially not on TV.  And doubly-especially not from anyone purporting to be a Madden expert.  In case it wasn't already obvious, i am kidding.

However, i am not joking about this part -- PLEASE, explain to me this "rating penalty" that you mentioned.  I know you can't possibly mean the slight OVR drop that cards tend to receive from playing OOP.  I have seen exactly zero evidence that this impacts the cards in ANY meaningful way (or really any tangible way at all).  All the stats remain the same, the abilities don't change... so what gives?  If this is your first 100 days of playing Ultimate Team, i guess you deserve a pass.  It's an extremely common misconception, one that i made myself, but those OVR ratings Do. Not. Matter.  They should be considered at best, a general guideline, but even that is being far too generous.  This has been debated since long before i rejoined the Madden community.

Dynamic difficulty adjustment (DDA) is a technique for adaptively changing a game to make it easier or harder. A common paradigm to achieve DDA is through heuristic prediction and intervention, adjusting game difficulty once undesirable player states (e.g., boredom or frustration) are observed. Without quantitative objectives, it is impossible to optimize the strength of intervention and achieve the best effectiveness. In this paper, we propose a DDA framework with a global optimization objective of maximizing a player's engagement throughout the entire game. Using level-based games as our example, we model a player's progression as a probabilistic graph. Dynamic difficulty reduces to optimizing transition probabilities to maximize a player's stay time in the progression graph. We have successfully developed a system that applies this technique in multiple games by Electronic Arts, Inc., and have observed up to 9% improvement in player engagement with a neutral impact on monetization.

I'm DEF not here to suggest you trust anything EA says, or does, but i've not seen any evidence that they have competent leadership, let alone a Dev team that is set up for success. I chalk the majority of these topics up to random events in a buggy, inconsistent mess of a game.  Feel free to change my mind, but i'm looking for proof.  The real problem is this pay to win nonsense. Has zero place in online, "competitive" games.  Especially not ones we hope are fair & balanced.  EA isn't going to shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the 1% of whales that spend 80+% of the money on packs.  So much cope.

Official EA statement here: https://www.ea.com/en-au/news/fair-play-and-dynamic-difficulty-adjustment

First thanks for a quality post. I agree 100% with your statement that this game is a buggy mess and probably responsible for much of it.

Talking about high overall players being nerfed and DDA That shiny new 91 ovr is basically 5% better than a 86. We also know things like height, weight, traits, thresholds, abilities and X factors are being accounted for in the algorithms. Once we add all that data in how much variance will there be?

Big foot’s tracks are more likely someone’s idea of a joke than actually big foot. Occam’s razor.

Is the argument being made that a person would reduce the overall of their team enough by doing this that they get matched with a lesser player or that DDA itself is less likely to adversely impact lower overall cards?

EA hasn’t fixed that page? They tell us they don’t have DDA in FIFA, Madden or NFL in back to back sentences. Such a massive company and nobody proofread?

Did you see the article at the bottom about Known Version Patching and their new update to it, In Place Updates? Interesting stuff.

It's 100% true. The proof is Jason Witten.

Until recently, Jason Witten was by far the slowest TE in the entire game. However, if you played with/against Witten, he would consistently outrun the entire defense, even though he shouldn't be able to.

I've also been on the receiving end of a JK Dobbins (RB) stretch play where he outran my entire 90+ speed defense. For reference, JK Dobbins is one of the lowest rated and slowest RB's in the game. I've also seen 83ovr Ceedee Lamb be the best WR on the opposing team in squads.

All these things are impossible unless DDA was a real thing.